Zines for SciComm
Image text: “I can go to a zine fest and people will see a a something on the table and like squeal because they feel so seen”—Caroline Hu
Show Notes
The Science of SciComm Club is a place dedicated to all things science communication! This space aims to bring academics, scientists, educators, and STEM enthusiasts together to exchange ideas, tips, and tricks on best science communication practices and theories.
This week’s guest is Caroline Hu—a cartoonist, postdoc, and biologist at Harvard University studying brain & behavior evolution.
In this episode we talked about:
How Caroline got into SciComm
When did art & science come together in Caroline’s work?
The inspiration behind “The LittleScientist”
What exactly are Zines and how can you start making them?
Caroline’s partnership with museums
Audience questions:
How to reach a broad audience with zines?
What is the storytelling structure of zines?
How do we measure impact?
Transcript
Amanda Coletti
So welcome friends, and thank you for coming to another clubhouse chat for the Science of Scicomm. My name is Amanda and today we are going to talk with our guest Caroline, who is going to talk to us about art and science, and making zines for science communication.So thank you Caroline for being here
Caroline Hu
Thanks for having me! This is my first clubhouse. So thanks Amanda for bringing me into the future.Amanda
Yeah this is so exciting!So I was wondering Caroline if you could start this off by telling us a little bit about your story so who you are and how you got to be where you are today.
Caroline
Okay, sure. I am a currently a postdoc, I studied biology, particularly the evolution of behavior, and I have. I honestly There is. There is a photo of me, just like scrolling on a piece of paper. Now I have a memory of this this is like pre, when before memories. So apparently I've been drawing forever too. And these are just two things that really stuck with me. I do have both my parents were engineers and they highly encouraged STEM areas, so I was also fortunate in that respect I had that support.And I will say a little bit less support on the art end, but this is something that's always persisted in undergrad. I did illustration for the school newspaper. Even now as a postdoc, I'm still finding ways to get that art out. I just feel like if I don't— If I try to seal that off, I get this like pent up pressure. And it just really it's both like therapeutic but also in a way I'm trying to, to harness it for good, too.
Amanda
Right. Yeah. So, when you said that you've always sort of known that science and art were sort of something that you were really interested in, and in high school, you said that was where they sort of like came together for you that art and science was a thing that you could do in as a career for both, or are you, or did that happen a little later in your career?Caroline
It happened later. I think I was definitely. So like I had to choose one way or the other. And part of it is, I think just the way that currently, these jobs, work in the US, it's like, you can be an artist, you don't have to go to school but if you want to do research particularly with animals in the states like you have to go to school or else you're like a criminal. So yeah, I felt like, alright, you know, that's, that's my choice then I will pursue a PhD and I was sincerely interested as well and I thought I would do art kind of on the side.And I would say for... I'm told by a couple years ago my postdoc, I really had like a moment where I was like I feel like I'm constantly trying to shove myself into these predetermine shapes. And I, and then I actually encountered a couple people that I'll just call them unicorns, that have life where they, they operate at the intersection of art, science and some of them also education and I was like yes, you exist! And that really mean, they really just like put a fire under me and be like okay well what do I need to do to make sure to like, try to get that kind of job.
Amanda
Yeah, that's really interesting because then I can remember growing out and thinking, you know, if you're interested in science, There's like two or three pathways that you can go on to be like doctor or researcher, and it's so great when you find these people who do really unique things it's like, tell me how you do what you do.Caroline
Yeah, it does seem like a lot of it is very self driven, and you do a lot of it for free for a while, and then you hope people notice, and you do a good job and then they want to pay you for it.Amanda
Yeah.Caroline
Which I realized like that's not everyone can do that right do a bunch of free work on the side for a little while, but um that does seem like. Unfortunately, how you can develop a craft for which there is no like, well there are not many say formal schools for.Amanda
So what, what was the process of developing your your art like for you like how like, what would you describe your style to be and how do you think that you developed that over the years?Caroline
I would say my style is definitely more cartoony, so I draw a lot of comics for example, and I think a lot of that just comes from the stories I fell in love with as a kid so I read Manga, I watched the Saturday morning like fun animation anime shows that were on basic cable, and I was really attracted to, to, to them because I felt like those were very different stories.And then also, as a grownup as like a Chinese-American kid, it was like Asian or kinda close. So I think that was also part of it. And so I would say I, my cartooning style is, I would say like my biggest passion project right now, which is called 'Little Scientists' and it's an allegory of graduate school, I would say it's a mixture of the Magic School Bus meets Studio Ghibli.
Amanda
I love that. Yeah, so I was I was taking a little look at 'The Little Scientists' on your website, and I just love how you know imagine Tim it was but also how much I could relate to the story that was being told during that. Do you want to talk a little bit about your your inspiration for that project in particular?Caroline
Yeah so that project. Oh my god, it started I somewhere in my piles, I have the first incarnation of that, the main character Millie and her ice bucket they came together; that's her little sidekick. And I drew those when I was doing my Masters, and that was in 2007.Amanda
WowCaroline
And so it's been cooking for a long time. And I would say my inspiration was really because I think part of it was just like okay, you know things allowed the cool and then it's pretty easy to, to imagine some of the little, some of the things that we work with some of the machines as like have little personalities right some of them were in beef and goop. So that was, you know, some of the material itself I think is just inspirational. And, and then also because there's a lot of like emotion.Right, you're like, in your early for a lot of people. You're in your early 20s into your early 30s. It's a really important time in your life you're making big decisions you're making major relationships so there's so there's just a lot. I wanted to make a comic that wasn't. I would say directly educational but biology. Instead I wanted to draw upon my experiences, having gone to grad school, to make something that was sort of more emotionally true, if that makes sense. And so yeah that's so that was really.
Think about this came from just me going to comic conventions and Zine festivals and seeing how science content was often relegated to just educational. And there were many people incorporating science—Science adjacent—inspiration into their personal stories, very much at all, and I also saw that there was even like some, I guess like, yeah, to some objections or some like "ew" about it. And so that was my first document like it can be cool you guys.
And, and then I mentioned earlier that I want a job where I can work at the intersection of science are in education, and I did talk to one of the unicorns that inhabits such a job right now and he gave me some great advice which is like, Okay, you want to educate, you— Where is it? like on your CV? Right, like you need to get some experience and make sure it's actually for you and, and that you are willing to put in the work to become can build skills in it and so I was like Okay, great. I will find a way to do this, and, man, it's so nice to find a program, any sort of group or community that will hold you accountable.
Some social pressure on you so as soon as I saw the SAI call for fellows, I was like yes, this is it. This is how I will actually, you know, step away from my work slack and and step away from all other ways they spend time like that you know, really focus on this. And it's true! Like I came to SAI with like a weird ameobus thing like this idea that, and now I'm walking out with. It's way more structured, I actually have a way of evaluating works been yeah, so I feel great about that.
Amanda
Yeah, that is awesome. I want to take a step back for a second, for people who are listening who don't know what Zines are if you could describe what Zines are and why you chose Zines specifically as an art form here.Caroline
So Zines are little booklets of words and pictures, and they are typically self published, and that is why I think there is such fantastic diversity in Zines, and why Zines have been a major vehicle for say marginalized voices to actually get their messages out there. It's because the barrier to entry is really low, and also they're really easy they're relatively cheap to distribute.You don't need a no editor. No, I don't know how like movie scripts get picked up but you know, none of that. A lot of a lot of the gatekeeping is gone. And so that's one of the reasons why I love Zines, and why I became inspired I think to have Zines be the, the medium of focus for my first SciComm initiative.
Amanda
Hmm. Yeah, that's awesome. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about like what your processes if you want to create a Zine. Like, where do you start, how do you go about doing it?Caroline
I would first start with a mini scene, because having a full sheet of white paper in front of you, including myself, and I've been drawing for a long time can be pretty ehhh! It can be pretty stifling you know it's like the open Word document is blank. So what I suggest doing first is start off with a mini scene where you actually are going to work on one, eight of a printer sheet at a time. And I would also pick some sort of constraints for yourself.I don't think Zine is the first time to like okay what do I want to say about my whole life about this little world. No just pick something small that you may be you know have a couple fun thoughts about. It can be a recipe for example, it can be simply to journal for one day of your life one morning, or just some, something that you're a big fan of like, you just want to make it about like 'The Crown' or something, just, just pick something small to start with, and, and then just like let yourself be messy, it's fine. You can just write, write, I think one of the easiest ways to get started is to write one sentence per page, and then step back and think about what visuals would, would, would accompany each of those sentences, and that's it.
And if you're, if you're drawing spooks you out. That's fine, you can always collage, there's some really amazing collage Zines out there or just get abstract just like put your emotions into your fingers and like, wow, you know, it was a really frustrating day just like stabbed that marker to that paper. It does not need to be actually like representative or realistic to actually convey what you want to convey.
Amanda
Yeah, that's such good advice because I feel like maybe this is the like scientists in me, the sciences side in me, but I know a lot of researchers and scientists tend to lean towards that kind of perfectionistic like tendency and when it comes to art, we need to like realize that we need to like let go a little, and have that flexibility to make mistakes and get messy right that was the, 'The Magic School Bus' like phrase: mistakes and get messy!Caroline
Yeah and I think that, um, you know, but we do experiment as scientists, I think it's just less like it was like oh I don't get a band on my gel or like whatever this kind of noisy. I guess it's a little less. Okay, I would say as a scientist with my experiment doesn't, does not look good. I, for me it's less of like this reflects on me. While, if I draw something, you know, and I get to maybe based off of something personal and it's a, it's not good. Yeah, I can, it's more precious and it's more, it cuts, it cuts deeper. Personally I feel that way.So, yeah, you know, for scientists out there like you're lying if you say your experiments work every time, the first time. So yeah, you know, except experimentation except failure. Instead, happens in art.
Amanda
I love that advice. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the museum side of the museum Zine project. So why museums specifically?Caroline
Yeah, happy to so museums, because, well, one, I will say I am drawing upon connections I do have, where the lab diamond I'm in Hopi Hoekstra slab. We do you interact with museums we do draw upon museum collections that I should say. But you see like the public exhibits of a museum. That's just like the tip of the iceberg. There's so 10s of 1000s of more specimens at the museum that are for research. And so that is something that on the lab in them, we do, we do work with those specimens.And so I find them very inspirational like that's the raw material for entire dissertations right that's like in there. And I also just find them, you know, they're just some of them are just so beautiful to be old too. And so for me I was thinking "wouldn't it be great to have people engaged with the actual specimens, and then you take that sort of raw unprocessed information in translation to some art of their own." And what's also good about the museum is that it has a public facing side, so people could start being more included in the museum interpretation too.
And that's why I really wanted I wanted, I did not want to tell people what to put in their Zines, how to put everything in their Zines. I just want to give them some tools and materials and then just like let them make it for themselves.
Amanda
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's really interesting because I feel like maybe this is just my experience. but you know when you're younger and you're going to museums for like the first time and experiencing and having these sort of moments of awe and wonder and just being really excited about stuff. I think it's such a great idea to like have an artistic like channel to sort of put all of that experiences.Because when you, you know, think back on like when you first were excited about science or when you like first started to be really interested in science. I think a lot of people go to these sort of informal experiences and say yeah I remember we went to this museum one time I had this thing, and that, that's often quoted as like the spark to their other interests. Zo I think that's great that you want to, to foster that through art.
Caroline
Yeah, I think it'd be great to—People will walk away right, hopefully, with their own little eight page like encapsulation of that time and then I'm hoping that. Also, especially with middle schoolers high schoolers. We're in also say postdocs like we're fascinated with one another, too. So I'm, I'm really curious as to whether or not, by having younger audiences make these Zines, will their friends say now be more interested because they've created this object that is hard to like, I think that it is a very tempting object that contains science content.Amanda
Yeah, yeah, I think they. One of the things they even mention, was, was trying to find a way to, You know, communicate some of that emotional aspect as well and I think even if you know people if kids friends you know might not originally be interested in science and might connect with the emotion side of it as well and then get, like, be interested in science, like through emotion.Caroline
Totally, totally. I think that some. I definitely have like a few different streams in my Twitter timeline where I'm like okay there's like actual papers and all that but then there's just also, like, Oh, your Twitter account that only post like strange things about crabs, I'm in. And I think part of it is like is there's like this emotional response where like you laugh or you're shocked or whatever like, there's definitely that that draw too because you're like, oh my god that's another living thing. Cannot believe it!Amanda
Yeah. So you had mentioned when we're talking about SAI and how the you came in with this idea and it ended up being something else, I was wanting to talk a little bit more about how the project sort of developed or changed, and what your process was and what you sort of learned during the 10 week process.Caroline
I would say to begin with, I didn't know exactly who my audience was. Like I had this idea already, of, of having these, these workshops where people would come in, actually have. I would say like softly curated specimens to look at and we can't, I can't just like give people the key. Just let them run wild. Like somewhat curated specimens to look at. And I thought maybe I didn't, I didn't quite know what audience yet, and this still might change I think too, depending on prototyping.But my mentor, Sarah Donovan was like, I would she highly encouraged like look into when people are forming their STEM identities. Where are these critical periods. And so that helped us narrow in on Middle School. And then from there, that made my next step so so much more clear like I got to reach out to middle school educators, I got to look at what is in the current curriculum for middle schoolers in terms of biology to make sure that the material will—how I would potentially be challenging the students is, say, appropriate right to their developmental stage. So, that was very important.
And then I would say just, you know, evaluation, that it's that entire limb of the project did not exist. When I started, and that's just been so eye opening. Like I, this is my first time stepping into To me this is almost like formal. I know it's informal education but it feels formal like I'm just not. I'm just this totally new to it, there's so there's a lot of lingo that we had to learn, I feel. Like I was like what is the difference between the output and an outcome, please help. Like literally, like totally new to me.
Yeah, so I would say those are the primary changes just like narrowing in on the audience and then really trying to optimize it for the audience.
Amanda
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's so important too because I love how how your mentor had directed you towards the moment where STEM identities change, and, you know like, that was something similar to my project with with STEM identity is when our people, you know, forming these opinions about about science and about themselves and realizing that they're sort of connection with these things and relationships to themselves and the world and the people around them. And, yeah, I think that's a really good piece of advice to think a little bit about different concepts that you're working with.Caroline
Yeah, I'm curious as to whether or not this workshop, you know, could we potentially get some students who have maybe they haven't closed the door to science, you know they're not like I'm not a science person, but they might really feel like I am an art person though. Yeah, just just students that I, I just wonder if this would, this would potentially increase. Just a little bit you know like the...what those students might consider themselves to be in a way like this will be a little further reaching than if it was advertised as like a pure STEM-y sort of workshop.Amanda
Mm hmm. Yeah, cuz I remember when, when you and I were talking in the collaboration workshop for SAI, we were talking a little bit about what this could look like for scientists and, like, bringing the art in to people who have traditionally only been looking at at the science side of things.So I guess I just sort of bouncing ideas off of you right now. What do you think would would really be different in, in having like adult scientists kind of audience and having an art workshop, like what—like the approach could be to getting a scientist who might have sort of already kind of drawn that line between themselves and their more creative side?
Caroline
Yeah, I would not, I know that there's definitely precedents for this, and I think that getting adults to draw can be tough. So I think there's definitely you know I definitely would lean, even further into just like, here's a bunch of old NAT GEOS and Scientific Americans like, you know, collage it up, or go abstract.And I think, though, one, one thing that I've said before, to scientists that I think kind of loosen people up a little bit or at least got them to make some New York connections was that, okay, a comic, a Zine might seem pretty low, well I'll take a little just to unfamiliar. And I like to point out that if you were to take your PowerPoint slide deck, and just print it in a booklet. Or if you were to take your scientific poster from your last conference, and just like, took some scissors to it like in, you have made this, you've made, you've operated in this like dimension before: this is not completely new to you.
And, and so I would say let's that's like my first move kind of be like some first words encouragement of just being like, okay, you know, just, you might have a story and just, you probably do have a story and I think you know, one I think would be great to ask scientists to make say ziens about their STEM stories right like their background say that would be great word. It's just Hey, first you can just write six to eight sentences about yourself, and again just put a sentence per page, and then just put something there on that page as well that you think complements those words and it does not need to be a hyper realistic drawing of you actually like breaking your arm as a kid like it doesn't have to be that.
So, when it comes to say having scientists draw their science, I mean I would hope that I would hope that they would have some familiarity with putting some sort of narrative into their own papers, and just say, Come on, you had a question, right? You had some sort of mystery, and then there were the experiments and, and that was like you know, the actual nail biting part right of like, oh, like, Is it is it possible, is the outcome A, outcome B, or is a completely unanticipated outcome C, or you know just like unclear. You clearly had some sort of, what do you call it conflict right— there's a conflict and then there was a resolution so boil that down into six eight pages, you could do it.
Amanda
Yeah, and I love the, the sort of visual of printing out a paper or printing out a poster, and like physically like cutting it up and collaging it up as you say, and I'm just like imagining all of these scientists like cutting into their posters. I think that they'll be like, really amazing though because, especially now that you know most posters are like everything's all digital and to actually get, like, into the tangible and physical aspect of making art, I think that would be really cool to kind of shake things up for scientists to really kind of cut and paste their their stuff together and into maybe a shortened version. That could be really cool.Caroline
Yeah, I think that cutting and pasting has honestly helped me too with just like, even on the backside of just like creating papers too. That sometimes you could just put like, okay, here are like my separate little pieces of data, put each of them on a note card, pretty much, and then just like see like okay what actually flows the best. And then yeah so I do think that like scientists, you all of you out there, you've thought this way before.And yeah, I, in I do, I personally do think that it's so much easier to enter like a creative flow state, if you, you can, the phone can be there, you know Podcasts can be offline whatever so music, or like to not have not be at your laptop and trying to do these things that have, you know, a glue stick and scissors and working on a desk; I feel like that's, I'm more likely to enter that. Yeah, just like in for a different mental states that in the end I think it's like what makes sometimes aren't making feel so cathartic and refreshing, rather than trying to do it on my laptop and having like Slack notifications interrupt me.
Amanda
Yeah, so you got to close that email tab. So, we're at the sort of halfway mark here for the hour so I wanted to open it up for questions from the listeners here. I do have a couple more questions that I can keep asking if not, but I do want to take a moment to open it up to people who want to ask Caroline some questions.Audience Member
Hello, everybody. Thank you for having me. and thank you for your very nice topic. Actually I didn't know anything about Zines before this room. Because, just to introduce myself I'm doing science communication for about maybe about six or seven years. I'm in Iran, and we're doing some sorts of things like, for example, doing podcasts and so on. But I didn't know anything about Zines.So one of my concerns about science communication is that we, as it's, it is its name. The communication, looking for. I mean, I think we're looking for, for, to have more, more and more audiences more poppy and. But I think in this kind of, I mean the Zines. I don't know, maybe you're not going to have a large audience in this kind of stuff. So you're just wandering.
For example, I don't know Caroline, and because I went through your insert Instagram page and it was wonderful. I really really enjoy that because one of one of the most important thing that you really did and it was making a character I think this is this little scientist is very interesting way, funny very, very think it's pretty easy. It can. I think she can have many others. But I'm just wondering, do you think that this kind of disease can be, can have larger audiences as well, or for getting more audiences, your, you can, You are going to, for example, do some more things like for example stop motions or animations or something like that?
Caroline
Yeah, thanks for your questions so I would say for, at least for the American print market right now. Middle School, comics, which are long, long Zines, comics and graphic novels is like one of the only growing portions of the print media right now. So there's definitely a strong desire for it for specific age groups, and the adult graphic novel market is also increasing.But whether—I totally agree that the Zine is probably not going to be the furthest reaching medium. And you know I thought I definitely wrestled with this a little bit where I thought about in terms of assessing say the impact of my program, you know like, I realize it's probably not going to be the most, like it's not maximized in that respect. But then I kind of step back and I thought like okay but this is clearly what I sincerely think about and I also know a fair amount of people that really do love this medium too and so instead I kind of accepted the fact that I think of myself as maybe a science communicator in like a whole like ecosystem of science communicators.
There's going to be people who have like million viewed YouTube videos. And then there might be me who made you know 200 comics. And what I'm hoping is that there's just going to be something out there for everybody. So that's kind of where I see myself as like I am definitely niche in but there's also those people who might come and see my work and be like, this is actually what I prefer and I'm glad that I would be there for them. But yeah, I agree, it's probably not going to be, you know, fingers crossed, but I don't think 'The Little Scientist' is going to be a Pixar movie anytime.
Stephanie Castillo
Caroline I have a question for you in terms of, like, you know, I want to also piggyback off of Amanda's comment of, of, I think it's a really great idea of thinking about our poster presentations and breaking them up. And that is a form of a Zine, you know. And I think that's really clever because even the presentations, the PowerPoint presentations that we do, like if we just repackage it in a way that is a little bit more approachable or more hands on in tangible like a Zine is clever.I'm a little curious as to like how, how do you how do you structure the scenes and I guess, you know, is there some type of are we following the same storytelling formula of like you know the, the, the beginning middle and end kind of thing or, you know, are there different types like how are you structuring your your design specifically.
Caroline Hu
I like a story with a little bit of like a mystery in the beginning and a conflict in some sort of conclusion, I prefer that sort of narrative arc. There are definitely scenes out there that are like what I mentioned before like recipes just cookbooks and, you know, there maybe would not be what you would call like a beginning or end to them. I think for zines also.Yeah, Yeah, um, I would say like how I actually structure the story. It's nice to have sort of like a beat, per page, if that makes any sense like a little bit of a story beat you learn a little bit something new every page at least. You can, but there's definitely, as with any medium, many ways to break the rules. But I would say if you're starting like at least make sure that with every page your reader is just like creeping a little bit closer to wherever the conclusion is, yeah.
Stephanie
Thank you for that.Amanda
Yeah I think that's that's really great because when, like when you said the beat right, it made me think of, of different types of comics where like you get a look just a little bit more each time, and it builds a story as a whole so I think that's, That's a great piece of advice there are too.Caroline
Yeah, I think you will probably also wanted to say the same thing about say if you're designing slides right. You want to look through them and be like, Okay, are there some that just really don't add anything, kick them out.Amanda
Yeah. So if anyone else has any other questions feel free to to raise your hand and I'll keep an eye on that here in the chat but or in the bottom here. But I was wondering if you could talk a little bit you said about your your partnership with museums as part of your research as a postdoc. So I was wanting to tell us a little bit about the museums that you've worked with and how that relates to your research on the evolution.Caroline
So, the museum that my lab currently works with is the Museum of Comparative Zoology, which is at Harvard. An how we work with them is that the lab as a whole, most people study one genus of mouse, this wild mouse that lives from like Alaska down to Panama. And as you can imagine living through such different patchworks of habitats, this genus has many species and some of them are really specialized. And what's really cool is that you can have though. Neighboring populations that are really closely related, but because of just like the local habitat maybe the soils a little bit darker or they're just a little more trees, the mice are subtly, but also sometimes like dramatically different, and that's what you can say really see— you can see those types of trends when you actually have many collected specimens.And so for many people in the lab. They're interested in particularly we say coat color changes to better match the environment or changes in how long their tails are so that they're better climbing in forested areas. For me as a person who studies behavior I will say it's challenging because most of the time behavior is not preserved. So, what I have actually currently in the attic of museums of our casts of animals and burros. Because I study burrowing behavior. Animals excavate homes for themselves, and different species of these mice. So the genus is para misgus in case anyone wants to look them up, they're the most common mammal most numerous mammal in the, in North America, so you might have seen one, or at least been close to one, or you didn't see those close to you.
Yeah, they're their burrows are also different depending on where they deal from and what species they are specifically. So that's how I would say, take advantage of those kind of archives where like, a behavior is actually now preserved. I should say. What I what I'm doing in the lab though is now sort of like taking those observations of like wow, this, this borrow looks like a children's stock it's not very long at all and then this borros and it's like, seriously a mirror long, how to use my screen this, and I've measured, save the mouse sizes and it's not just like one mouse is just super beefy and that's why it's like knocking out these super long burros.
In fact, our tiniest mouse is the one that takes us really long for us. What we have now, we have in the basement of bio lab so if anyone ever comes and visits Harvard, and you're standing, there's, we have a beach volleyball court in Massachusetts, for some reason, in front of the biolabs buildings so it gets used for you know, four months. If you're standing there visiting underneath you, is actually our animal facility. And somewhere in the animal facility is me just jumping in and out of literal dumpsters of sand that we let the mice excavate in, so that we nicely measure their behaviors and do other things like golf, so they do other things like say we can we can genetically cross some of these minds and see how genetics, influenced behaviors. Yes, so we're taking what happens in the wild and brand lab.
Amanda
That is awesome. So when you say like piles of sand like I'm imagining those like ant farm kids where you can like see through like the clear sides, the different like tunnels, is that sort of like what you're describing?Caroline
We have a few flavors of essays, so we have with a literal not okay, it's not actually a metal dumpster but it is a ton, like a literal ton of sand in a giant box. That is our most freeform essay. So the animals can do they create the architecture that they create. And the difficulty about those though is that yeah you can't see right what actually happened underground. So, you're totally right. We also have farms, as well as 3d printed burrows, that have them just filled with sand and then there's a clear face to it, and then we have a camera right up against that clear face as the mouse will empty it, and we see what they do. That is so cool I love what you described with this architecture too, like they're they're creating their own home. There's. Do you think that there is like an art form to to what they're doing as well.I know that's something that is, we talk about this a lot and just like, do that, do the animals have some sort of template in their mind about like what they're going for. We've, we've discussed this a lot in labs, and I don't at this point I think that we still don't. We think that for some of the species that niggles really short burrows. They I think can assess something that's short and pre dug for them so it doesn't have to be the shape that they're using make, but it's like, yeah, generally around the right size, and they'll just like good enough, and they'll park in there and they'll sweep in there, but the ones that take a long burrows, If you give them say, a pre dug tunnel that's maybe half the length, they will extend it. So, we do. So I think that there is some assessment of what is before me.
And then there's also. I do think that just the way that some of the species dig compared to others, some of them are just way more efficient than others and such that it cannot not make something longer for the same amount of time spent. But it's so cool I can only imagine what is like 3d structures or 3d printed structures of burrowing tunnels would look like. I'm wondering if you, is that where some of your art comes into your, your postdoc research or have you done some of that using the the burrowing. Oh yeah, I know that was my first time. I will say, I won it. Okay, this is one of the, it's double sided, in terms of postdoc research progress. Well, I was. So, when you're studying a behavior for which there's not. There's not a pre fab arena, right, there's not. Decades of research people using the same exact sort of measurement. so great, because anything you develop and learn is new.
But then, oh my god, I have to develop this. And so I was say definitely one skill that was transferable so I took commercial art in high school. And so I learned how to use Illustrator, but my brain was still nice and like pliable in that way. And I think Mr boy a for that so much. Because I know Illustrator is the bane of many people's existences when they're trying to learn it later. So I know it, and it turns out that that's how you can design pieces to be cut with a laser cutter. And so I use the laser cutter, a lot to build arenas for the mice. I take pieces of plastic and I turn them into like structures and stuff with gates and everything, so that we have these bespoke ways of measuring the behavior of mice. S'o cool. Yeah, so the, the animal behavior side of things when I was an undergrad, I did a little bit of Animal Behavior Research in addition to like the neuro science side of things and tried to connect them so that's why I'm really interested in
Amanda
research works, it's really cool. Thanks, thanks. Yeah, okay. So this was actually yeah piggybacking off of Bahamas question where so Stephanie explored your Instagram, a little bit and so you are definitely a skilled video maker and then Amanda you're an oral storyteller. And so, I guess yeah I'm curious as to, like, why you chose your mediums and then for media and then how, like, was impact, how much did impact affect that decision, or was it just something that like also was just something you love to do. First, Stephanie, do you want to go forStephanie
sure. Yeah, I think this has been a reoccurring theme theme in our science OSI comm chats, is, is interesting, is like sorry how to unmute you, because there's an echo is like how do we actually measure impact because a lot of a lot of the science communicators that start their science communication, what, like, be on social media or other types of platforms, most of them start because of just pure interest, and something that they want to do or it's kind of like an escape to their day to day, grad school or work life and so at least for me, like, I started science communication, because I like I was just very miserable in my grad school program I needed an outlet, and as someone who like consumes so many videos especially YouTube videos. That's why I decided to kind of start like making videos for like digital for the digital space.And I, yeah just continued to kind of develop that and grow that and I even when I first met Manuel from the sim advocacy. As I was exploring, like how I can develop this side project into actual business I think that's always been the biggest question like you know what, like how am I going to measure the actual impact of my work. And, you know, and is there anything measurable that I can, that I, that I can measure, you know, is there any measurable statistics or something or data that I can get from people who do watch my videos and to kind of validate this business model whatever business model that I'm trying to do and I think it's you know it's still the question that I have because I you know I making videos because it's something that I like doing and I'm, and I feel like I'm getting better at doing.
And, but if I want to make, you know my platform future doctors until like a legit media company, or some type of like social enterprise where I'm either doing workshops for graduate students or for for high school students like how would that look like and how do I actually know if they're being impacted by the videos that I'm producing or the workshops that I'm with, I think with workshops you can kind of figure it out more, but just even having like posting the videos on YouTube, like how to actually know aside from just the metrics that are on YouTube that I had that I'm actually impacting, you know, changing behavior of the audience that are watching my, my, my videos and so yeah I think that's always been, that's like kind of like what the scientists icon is is like how do we actually create those tools to measure efficacy or impact and what does that look like for each platform, or is it just a case by case kind of thing.
Amanda Coletti
Yeah, I love that answer Stephanie, I think for me, um, one of the things that like when I first started getting into oral storytelling was, I was also in a, in a lab that I wasn't super happy in, and I spent a lot of time on on a microscope. So if anyone has ever done any microscope work in their in their research, I was on a confocle microscope which just has to be kept in this dark, cold room as ours. And typically, you know, a lot of times, most times just say to pass the time that I listened to podcasts, and I didn't really think that I'd be interested in podcasts at first, but that's, that's really how I got into oral storytelling and how I got inspired by listening to other people's stories about science and their experiences in science, so I think for me, it really came from this Inspiration Place of listening to people's struggles with with their research or struggles with themselves in in STEM and you know as my experiment, you know, is like failing in front of me I'm listening in my ears of hearing these stories of other people, you know, failing and succeeding and it really just inspired me overall.And then when I switched into the communication program. I think one of the biggest things for me was that I was really really nervous about public speaking, and about, you know, just talking and even to storytelling, and that was one of the main things that I wanted to work on for like personal improvement I want to be able to communicate effectively and to tell stories like I've been hearing on these podcasts for years. So I think having the oral storytelling communities, things that you see on like the story collider or the moth.
I'm just having this really supportive storytelling audience was really appealing for me, because previously the only experience that I had with public speaking was either in a class or in front of a, a professor, where there was a lot of, you know, evaluation and judgment, and a grade attached to it, but in oral storytelling, on the side. Is that all that was was taken away and I could really just enjoy the sort of art and craft of storytelling. So I think that really was, was the inspiration for me and why I really like to do it, but also because it, it occurs in, in a lot of these informal spaces and I think that's one of the questions driving my research as well, is how can we evaluate things in these really informal spaces that aren't sort of meant to be evaluated, but really do have significant emotional impact on people. So how do we sort of capture that in some way to try to so that's it for me.
Caroline Hu
Yeah, that's, oh, that last part, like, okay, I can go to zine fest and like, people will see something on the table in like squeal. Because it is a song, they're just they either feel so seen because they're like, yes, that is exactly me or it's like exactly the crossover between two properties that would never actually ever happen, but here it is like drawn beautifully. and just been, you know for $6 Like, that's, I don't know how to measure that besides like you know like whatever that squeal factor is, right, like, I feel like that happens, and it might be, then you know, the rest of that whole weekend everybody else's walks past that scene and like, that's fine, you know, I think that's kind of in a way that's a little bit of what I hope for live for is that, to have someone actually like, see and be like that will be my precious thing. That's what I like the preciousness scale or something that we have to develop to measure that.Amanda Coletti
So we are just about at the hour here, so I just wanted to thank Caroline so much for coming and chatting with us today. This has been such an interesting conversation, and I I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I know I'm leaving here feeling really inspired to go make some art in some way, on my Saturday evening, so I just wanted to thank Caroline so much for being here. That you round me, there's a lot of fun and Yeah, happy to hear that, you know, this is going to maybe get some creative juices flowing for you yesterday, because, okay, Sai, was a great time 10 weeks later, like I'm finally really getting to know what the other fellows were doing. Like you amazing people. So yeah, please stay in touch. Absolutely yes I can see lots of ways that we can stay in touch and collaborate in the future so absolutely I love that. So thank you everyone else for tuning in today, this conversation is being recorded so you can share this conversation with your friends, and look out for the next chat that we'll be hosting for the science of psychology. So thank you everyone and have a great weekend.Bye everyone.